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Michael Droy

You are somehow presuming that Covid is a major threat relative to other health (and economic) threats.
Avoidance of a herd immunity policy means more cancer deaths, more anything else deaths, horrendous psychological problems for adults, worse for children, and so on and so on.

"Which saves more lives: herd immunity or vaccinations?" is a mute question.
The real question is does lock down kill more than Covid either way. Yes it does.


MD: I'd be interested in reading studies that quantify those other effects with data. So far, we know we have suffered significantly more excess deaths, which no one has explained other than Covid19. Vaccination is the primary path to achieve herd immunity so those two are not opposing concepts.

Michael N

Herd immunity is necessary! Some people cannot receive vaccines, others have immune system issues that prevent vaccines from working. Yes, these people will always be vulnerable. By reaching enough community immunity that a threat is entirely eliminated, this population is protected. That is the real need for herd immunity. The conclusion is the same: if you are able, you should be vaccinated. But the reason is to protect the people who cannot be protected.


MN: That is a valid point. Some of the 25% will be people who, say, have specific adverse reactions to the vaccine. However, they should be an absolute minority of the estimated 80 million people! Further, they should be informed of the points in my post: that they can get sick if they get in contact with the virus, and that they should encourage their friends and neighbors to get vaccinated.

Michael Droy

Kaiser: you only have to at cancer diagnosis. There is plenty of doctors out there willing to testify that diagnosis of cancer in UK has fallen by half to three quarters.
Either Covid or Lockdown has prevented a great deal of cancer very quickly, or that is a lot of cancer patients who will get diagnosed very late. Cancer doctors do predict that that will mean more excess deaths from cancer than Covid. And of course it will be taking 10s of years off their lives instead of 1 or 2.

I'm another case. With access to a doctor or specialist heart consultant I would have had the need for an angiogram diagnosed and the 3 stents I needed.
I had to get into hospital another way - collapsing while running with a heart attack right in front of the A&E registrar who was cycling on his way to his evening shift. Even he couldn't save me without the fortunate arrival of a police car with a defibrillator. I thanked him 40 mins later when my ambulance delivered me to his A&E department.

The bottom line is that Covid is reducing the life expectancy of humans by about 2 months. In UK life expectancy rose by 6 years to 81 over 1987-2017. We got those extra 6 years of life because of the growing economy, better lifestyles, and much improved health services. Killing the Golden Goose of Economics and health services rather than accept a 2 month set back is lunacy

Like Covid itself, the over-reaction of the immune system by governments, media and "those that feel obliged to react" is killing the patient.


Michael Droy: Lack of medical care is more likely due to doctors making themselves unavailable or being diverted to care for the large-number of covid-19 patients. 60+ year old doctors do not want to see lots of patients for procedures. Hospital administrators don't want them to, anyway, because their budgets are stuffed. They didn't lockdown hospitals they repurposed them as covid-19 treatment centres.

I won't comment on how to describe someone who had symptoms that required an angiogram and then went running. One thing that all lockdowns have is to allow access to doctors, so why didn't you.

Your death figures look like they are made up.

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